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RISC OS emulators - a clarification...? |
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Guest |
Message #89799, posted at 10:42, 11/1/2002 |
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Complete and utter FUD.
Paul Middleton is completely incorrect. It is absolutely pathetic that he is running scared of 'virtual A5000s'. Does he think that his products are that bad?!
IMPORTANT TECHNICAL POINT: Red Squirrel and Virtual A5000 are *NOT* 'RISC OS emulators'. They are Acorn hardware emulators. You can use them to run ARM Linux, Arthur, or RISC iX. They are not tightly-linked to RISC OS. |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89800, posted at 10:46, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89799 |
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Heh, good point - I get so used to s/Acorn/RISC OS/ that I never thought about that ;) |
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Guest |
Message #89801, posted at 12:05, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89800 |
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If you want to install Red Squirrel with RISC OS 4 on a PC is it legal if you buy an extra set of RISC OS 4 ROMs? So you don't put them into a RISC OS computer. |
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Guest |
Message #89802, posted at 13:39, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89801 |
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It's worth clarifying that there is a 3rd hardware emulator besides Archie and RS et al., ArcEm. With versions that work in RISC OS, Unix and Windows.
http://arcem.sourceforge.net/
Peter
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89803, posted at 13:47, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89802 |
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(previous poster) Then how would you save out the ROM image? :)
Seriously though I see what you mean, you'd have basically bought another license, but according to Paul M (IIRC from what I read on the archive mailling list) you've only licensed it for Acorn/ARM/RISC OS hardware, not for use on a PC. To be fair it might have something to do with the terms of getting the rights to ship RISC OS 4 from Pace, but it seems a little short sighted to me. |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89804, posted at 13:50, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89803 |
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Gah, Peter, will you slow down, I've only just found the download for OpenSSH!
Okay, it appears that since September 30th there's now *three* emulators, but still, none of them appear to be shareware.
Also, ArcEm isn't strictly speaking available as there is no download
(unless the sourceforge file list is wrong). |
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Andrew Jackson |
Message #89805, posted at 14:19, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89804 |
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Just checked out arcem.sourceforge.net. There are indeed no official releases to download, but there is a whole host of stuff in the CVS repository. On the licensing issue, it looks to me like RISC OS Ltd haven't been kept informed properly by Pace. Either way, I guess ArcEm is technically unusable unless you're in on the Select scheme. |
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Peter Naulls |
Message #89806, posted at 14:43, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89805 |
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The lack of content on the ArcEm page is largley my fault.
To futher clarify:
There is a RISC OS release of ArcEm along with the rest of my Unix ports.
There's a Windows versoin on the eQRD homepage, which I hope to roll into the main sources.
ArcEm only emulates A4x0 series machines, so like Archie, its use with RISC OS 4 remains academic. |
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Andrew P Harmsworth |
Message #89807, posted at 16:04, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89806 |
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Think I'd better buy a copy of Virtual A5000 then! |
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Guest |
Message #89808, posted at 17:13, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89807 |
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[...that is, is making a copy of your own legitimate software (i.e. the OS in ROM) really breaking copyright as Paul insists?]
Yes! You need to purchase a licence for each machine you want to use it on. If you have two machines, for most pieces of software you have to buy 2 licences if you want to use it on both machines. |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89809, posted at 17:16, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89808 |
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But if I already have an A5000 that doesn't work (i.e. the one I have that has no CPU and a dodgy memory interface), but has a perfectly good set of ROMs, I can't then use that "copy" of RISC OS on another machine? I'm still only using it on one machine. |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89810, posted at 17:27, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89809 |
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(p.s. Microsoft also operate a policy whereby you can take one office copy of Windows and install it on one home machine). |
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mark quint |
Message #89811, posted at 17:53, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89810 |
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from what I interpret, if you have bought RiscOS as part of a RiscOS machine or from ROL at some point as an upgrade, then the license specifies that you can only run it on 'acorn' hardware, so if you were to use it on RedSquirrel then you'd be as bad as those kiddies & napster ;)
If you buy VirtualA5000 then seeing as they have obtained the license from Pace then you perfectly entitled to run it on your PC - i wonder if you're allowed to run the image on an acorn machine? :) |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89812, posted at 19:06, 11/1/2002, in reply to message #89811 |
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Yes, it's sad when Microsoft are running a more enlightened policy than RISC OS ;) |
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Guest |
Message #89813, posted at 11:18, 12/1/2002, in reply to message #89812 |
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Although I can't remember the exact details, there was a certian point where by if you had a certain version of a product, you were also licenced to use all previous versions to help companies migrate etc. I'm sure the company I work for use a similar trick because Win2K licences are so hard to come by these days, so they just buy WinXP and install 2K. |
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Guest |
Message #89814, posted at 19:52, 13/1/2002, in reply to message #89813 |
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Does this not strike anyone else as ROL wasting a great opportunity to bring more people, RISC OS sales and revenue to the market?
Surely they'd be much better off working in partnership with the Virtual Acorn folks, rather than suggesting (apparently incorrectly) that it's illegal.
Robert |
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Guest |
Message #89815, posted at 10:14, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89814 |
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Mark, I like that one:
Buy an RO4 image from ROL and you may only use it on ARM kit.
Buy the same image from Virtual Acorn and you may only use it on x86 kit.
Hey, I'm gonna swap them round and break both licenses at once! How will anybody ever know, heh, heh, cackle ... |
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Alasdair Bailey |
Message #89816, posted at 10:15, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89815 |
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Hi,
I can sympathise with RISCOS Ltd. on this one. From the postings Rich quotes in the news story, it would appear that nobody at Pace told them that they were allowing Aaron to produce this emulator and use the RISC OS 3.11 ROMs. Now they're probably concerned that people will emulate RISC OS on their PCs rather than buying new Micos, RiscStations and whatever Castle are doing at the moment.
Further, if they were to successfully stop emulators being sold, I don't think they would be missing much of an opportunity. Okay, so maybe a couple of hundred people will shell out the 30quid for an emulator to run all the games and utilities they've not managed to find alternatives of for the PC. However, they aren't going to buy this emulator and then think "I know, I'll buy some RISC OS software to run on this". Also, I can't imagine it will encourage anyone to buy the hardware either. The fact that the emulator only runs RO3 will only remind people of how much better XP/ME is in comparison.
I have bought a copy of VirtualA5000 and I'll pop a review into computer shopper's what's new? section if the editor doesn't complain. He is an ex-acorn fan himself though so it should be okay.
Cheers,
a |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #89817, posted at 11:20, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89816 |
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Alib - the only problem with the above is that Aaron had been in touch with Riscstation, Microdigital and Castle because their logos appear on the Virtual Acorn website. The actual makers of RISC OS hardware seem fine with VA5000, and have said that it won't affect sales; this is /purely/ PM stating his opinion in a company publication. I presume therefore that this makes it the official stance of the company that makes the OS - but almost certainly /not/ the hardware manufacturers. |
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Guest |
Message #89818, posted at 13:34, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89817 |
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It's true, VirtualA5000 is in no way a competitor to new machines, its more like the way PC software vendors give away old versions to lure you into the fold - in itself it's good for ROL.
It's only a competitor to the secondhand market. I saw real A5000's going at the midland show for a tenner (or was it a fiver?) apiece. Virtual A5000 is actually more expensive (if you discount the monitor etc).
The real worry for ROL is whether VirtualRiscPC is on the cards. |
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Guest |
Message #89819, posted at 13:39, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89818 |
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If RISCOS Ltd. are frightened by Virtual A5000 or Virtual Risc PC, then perhaps they should pulled their heads out of their arses a long time ago? If we were all using fully-fledged SA-110 or XScale systems, our real hardware would be WAY faster than the emulator.
Sadly, because we have CRAP hardware, the emulator is considered to be a 'real threat'. |
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Guest |
Message #89820, posted at 13:48, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89819 |
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I suspect the real problem is who gets the licence fee ROL or Pace.
PM states that ROL has the (exclusive?) worldwide licence for RISC OS for the Desktop Computer Market, in which he classes the emulator, and so ROL should do the licencing and get the fee.
AT states that RISC OS has been licenced from Pace, so Pace get the licence fee. So it would appear that Pace do NOT think that the emulator falls into the Desktop Computer Market.
ROL exists to promote RISC OS as a computing platform, so my opinion is that RISC OS should be licenced from ROL, so that ROL get the licence fee.
As a former Acorn owner, I am interested in VA5000 so that I can run TechWriter at work and at home instead of the mess that is Word!
Keith Harris.
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Mr Jake Monkeyson |
Message #89821, posted at 14:00, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89820 |
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I thought RISCOS Ltd had a license to distribute RISC OS 4 (and derivatives) for desktop computers. VA is 3.1. |
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John Hoare |
Message #89822, posted at 14:09, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89821 |
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You're right Mr.Monkeyson - ROL don't have access to anything but the RISC OS 4 source either. It looks like a grey area... |
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Mr Jake Monkeyson |
Message #89823, posted at 14:20, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89822 |
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Do Pace own the rights to Arthur? |
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John Hoare |
Message #89824, posted at 14:26, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89823 |
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Yep, they own the rights to OS 0.1 if I remember correctly! |
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Guest |
Message #89825, posted at 14:26, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89824 |
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RISC OS Ltd. may claim various things, but their interpretation has been questioned. Therefore, the argument that "VirtualA5000 licensing revenues ought to go to RISC OS Ltd." should itself be more robust!
It's all very well suggesting how things "ought to be", but I don't see how RISC OS Ltd. should necessarily benefit from the licensing of RISC OS 3.1. I tend to agree with the contributor who suggests that RISC OS Ltd. are only acting up because emulators really do threaten the "native" RISC OS scene, mostly due to the lack of progress in that scene over the past five years.
Consequently the revenue sources of RISC OS Ltd. are under threat and they have no certain way of putting that threat down. |
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Mr Jake Monkeyson |
Message #89826, posted at 14:29, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89825 |
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Has anyone read their mission statement recently?
http://www.riscos.com/faqs/mission.htm
Have they managed to achieve any of those points?
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Guest |
Message #89827, posted at 14:40, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89826 |
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Surely ROL shouldn't be too concerned - IIRC RO3.1 was launched in 1991 - that's 11 years ago! If RO4/Select is such an improvement, noone in their right minds would want to use RO3.1 in preference.
PM should probably spend more time working on improving the current version of RO4/Select (still waiting for my CD PM...!) than worrying about what is likely to be a very small amount of people buying an emulator for a defunct piece of Acorn antiquity running an obsolete 11 year old OS. |
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Guest |
Message #89828, posted at 14:43, 14/1/2002, in reply to message #89827 |
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To put the above in context - what was the comparable Windows product 11 years ago? How much has Windows improved since then? I know it's still crap, but usability, functionality and stability have definitely improved! |
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