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RISC OS - the week in comments; episode 3 |
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Chris (17:52 18/3/2007) monkeyson2 (09:45 19/3/2007) Phlamethrower (10:01 19/3/2007) monkeyson2 (11:03 19/3/2007) Chris (14:59 19/3/2007) monkeyson2 (15:24 19/3/2007) tlsa (16:19 19/3/2007) gazc (16:59 27/3/2007) sorvad (09:50 19/3/2007) moss (10:00 19/3/2007) sorvad (10:20 19/3/2007) monkeyson2 (10:36 19/3/2007) moss (10:41 19/3/2007) monkeyson2 (10:49 19/3/2007) Q (12:57 19/3/2007) sorvad (13:35 19/3/2007) Col (14:21 19/3/2007) sorvad (15:41 19/3/2007) monkeyson2 (15:51 19/3/2007) sorvad (15:54 19/3/2007) arawnsley (16:36 19/3/2007) Col (16:50 19/3/2007) CrazyRisc (18:05 19/3/2007) Col (08:03 20/3/2007) epistaxsis (08:09 20/3/2007) pnaulls (19:22 20/3/2007)
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Chris |
Message #100205, posted by Chris at 17:52, 18/3/2007 |
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On the issue of RISC OS being depressing and all, I tend to go through alternate periods of being optimistic and pessimistic. If St Martin Wuerthner releases an update I start to think it's all going to be OK, but if I read the thread on iPlayer in the newsgroups I get depressed very quickly.
Part of me wishes that the dream of restoring RISC OS to being a 'real' OS (i.e. a genuine choice lined up against Linux, MacOS et al) goes away and we can start treating it just as a hobby OS (which is how I think of it). I used to have an Amstrad CPC and was a bit sad when the CPC world went the way of all flesh, but now that nobody seriously uses it, the remaining community is a lot of fun and people are writing all sorts of mad stuff for it (see http://www.symbos.de/facts.htm).
The key thing is *fun*: projects like the USB missile launcher make RISC OS still an interesting OS. If we weren't so hung-up all the time about competing with the 'real world' OSes, maybe we'd get some back. And there is still stuff to like: ArtWorks and NetSurf being at the top of the list. |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #100219, posted by monkeyson2 at 09:45, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100205 |
Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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Part of me wishes that the dream of restoring RISC OS to being a 'real' OS (i.e. a genuine choice lined up against Linux, MacOS et al) goes away and we can start treating it just as a hobby OS (which is how I think of it). I used to have an Amstrad CPC and was a bit sad when the CPC world went the way of all flesh, but now that nobody seriously uses it, the remaining community is a lot of fun and people are writing all sorts of mad stuff for it (see http://www.symbos.de/facts.htm). In a way it's always been a bit of a hobby OS. When did it ever compete with Windows and Mac? (OK, there was a time when it could compete as it was superior in many ways, but there were very few markets where it actually was marketed as a competitor, and fewer where it was even noticed.)
The key thing is *fun*: projects like the USB missile launcher make RISC OS still an interesting OS. If we weren't so hung-up all the time about competing with the 'real world' OSes, maybe we'd get some back. And there is still stuff to like: ArtWorks and NetSurf being at the top of the list. True, but there's competition even in the hobbyist sector. Linux is a very strong competitor for the hobbyist software developer, as is Mac OS X. Games development? Playstation homebrew or Flash. I suppose RISC OS is good for masochistic developers!
But, for people who know the system well (it's simple enough to understand the whole of it within your lifetime!) it's great for tinkering with.
Also: Another one gone. How long before you can count the number of RISC OS users on the fingers of one foot? |
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sorvad |
Message #100222, posted by sorvad at 09:50, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100205 |
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I want to get back into Risc OS, am I mad, quite possibly.
I use and have used a Wintel PC for my job and main home computer now for many years. My very old antiquated A3000 (with Internet access, hard disk and some other bits and bats) sits in it's box in the attic. It will return one day but not as my main Risc OS machine, for that I will be looking at a much newer model.
But the question is why do I want to do this ? I've seen the way the community is, the way they fight amongst themselves, with the suppliers being pretty much the same.
The reason I want to re-join is to put some fun back into my computing and to hopefully contribute something that is fun and perhaps useful too.
I can be under no delusions that it will not become my main machine. For my work I need access to many PC specific apps that will never in a month of Sundays appear on Risc-OS even if it was still in it's hey-day.
It will cost me a lot of money too (if I go the totally brand new route) but I want to have some fun again with my favourite OS and hopefully inject a little money into the software developers (and hardware too) pockets to keep them working.
Am I mad ? well probably, but I'm hoping to have some fun along the way. As long as I know what I'm getting into I'll be OK won't I ?
In the end I suppose I would be treating it as a hobby machine and not a work machine, so perhaps Risc OS can only now be a hobby OS. Is that important ? Surely we must be realistic and can never expect it to be a main OS again ?
It'll still be quite some time before I get my new machine (money being one issue, but probably buy second hand to start with anyway).
I'm not a half bad coder, been a very long time since I did anything in anger on Risc OS though but I'm really hoping I can contribute in the future and enjoy doing the work along the way.
Even if it is just a hobby OS, if there are enough people in the hobby there will be an industry to support it, it needn't die off. Look at any other hobby you can mention, hey we may even get a newsagent stand mag back ! (Gosh I think I'm stretching it a bit there !) |
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John Hoare |
Message #100224, posted by moss at 10:00, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100222 |
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RISC OS for me used to be both a hobby OS (messing around with things) *and* a serious OS (for doing my proper work).
The thing is, OS X has taken over both roles. Not only is it far better suited to my main work... but it's far more fun to piss around with too. |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #100225, posted by Phlamethrower at 10:01, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100219 |
Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff
Posts: 15100
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I suppose RISC OS is good for masochistic developers! But that was for the BBC, not RISC OS! |
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sorvad |
Message #100228, posted by sorvad at 10:20, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100224 |
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The thing is, OS X has taken over both roles. Not only is it far better suited to my main work... but it's far more fun to piss around with too. I've been surrounded by Macs in my job for about 13 years now, think I started off using 6.7.x
and I programmed on them and PC's for about 7 years before being solely dedicated to PC app development. And although they still surround me today in my place of work I rarely get involved with them and they really don't interest me.
I can't comment on OS X as I very rarely use it despite being surrounded by Mac to PC ratio of about 60/40 but the earlier Mac OS was in my opinion nothing to write home about at least not in comparison to the then Risc OS. Which was my main home OS back when I started on Macs.
I wonder how rare I am, a guy that used Macs for years and doesn't say how wonderful they are.
OK This is my own view but I feel I might need my flame retardant underwear on now... |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #100231, posted by monkeyson2 at 10:36, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100228 |
Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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I wonder how rare I am, a guy that used Macs for years and doesn't say how wonderful they are.
OK This is my own view but I feel I might need my flame retardant underwear on now... Not from me. I didn't think much of Macs at all until the most recent version of OS X (Tiger). We've got a Mac Mini at work running the previous version (Panther?) and it wouldn't have made me switch.
If you want to get involved in RISC OS, I think you should. It only needs a few people actively taking interest to inspire the miserable old sods. |
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John Hoare |
Message #100233, posted by moss at 10:41, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100231 |
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Not from me. I didn't think much of Macs at all until the most recent version of OS X (Tiger). We've got a Mac Mini at work running the previous version (Panther?) and it wouldn't have made me switch. Out of interest, what was it about Tiger over Panther that made you switch? |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #100239, posted by monkeyson2 at 10:49, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100233 |
Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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Out of interest, what was it about Tiger over Panther that made you switch? It doesn't suck?
Improvements to the UI (especially System Preferences), Spotlight, better networking support, VPN that works, burn folders...
Panther mostly does the job, but it's a bit rudamentary. Tiger just feels nicer. |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #100245, posted by monkeyson2 at 11:03, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100219 |
Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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Also: Another one gone. How long before you can count the number of RISC OS users on the fingers of one foot? And another! |
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John Cartmell |
Message #100266, posted by Q at 12:57, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100222 |
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sorvad: If you are without a RISC OS machine and want to contribute then say where you are in the country. Someone local may well be willing to offer you some hardware that you can get to work with.
If you are within striking distance of South Manchester we might be able to locate a fairy godmother for you! ;-) |
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sorvad |
Message #100268, posted by sorvad at 13:35, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100266 |
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Well, that would be more than generous, yes I am about 45mins drive to south Manchester. However I would like to defer this kind offer for a short while as at present (and the main reason I've not got back into RiscOS) I've no where to set my kit up. Due to family expansion two years ago (i.e. children) I lost my study and it's been re-located to the attic, which is not ready for use yet, but should be all completed by the end of this year.
It's at that point that all my old Acorn kit (including that very old A3000) and my next Acorn machine to be will be put into use.
Until that time comes I don't have time to contribute at the moment anyway (yes I'm the sole worker on the house renovations so this takes up a lot of spare time).
If that offer still good in about 9 months time that would be great. Wouldn't like to accept any kit and then do nothing with it for months
At the moment I use a works laptop as my sole computer at home as don't even have my old PC desktop machine set up anymore. |
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Colin Cartmell-Browne |
Message #100269, posted by Col at 14:21, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100268 |
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Don't know whether this is possible for you or not but perhaps you'd like to come along to RONWUG (South Manchester based user group) on Wedsnesday night.
Details are: Date: Weds 21 March (and every 3rd Weds of the month) Start time: 7pm for 7:15pm, Venue: Trafford Metrovick Rugby & Cricket Club Finnybank Road Sale Cheshire M33 6LR
Venue is a few hundred yards from M60 J7,
I'll probably not be there this week but plenty of other members will be. |
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Chris |
Message #100272, posted by Chris at 14:59, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100219 |
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In a way it's always been a bit of a hobby OS. When did it ever compete with Windows and Mac? (OK, there was a time when it could compete as it was superior in many ways, but there were very few markets where it actually was marketed as a competitor, and fewer where it was even noticed.) Fair point, but I think there were several years when it wouldn't have been ridiculous to compare RISC OS with PCs/Macs in the fields of DTP, design, bitmap editing, word processing and 'office' style software. That's a pretty big chunk of what a computer gets used for, even now. Regrettably, RISC OS never really got into the internet/media age, and as a result even the good features it used to enjoy have been superseded.
True, but there's competition even in the hobbyist sector. Linux is a very strong competitor for the hobbyist software developer, as is Mac OS X. Games development? Playstation homebrew or Flash. I suppose RISC OS is good for masochistic developers!
But, for people who know the system well (it's simple enough to understand the whole of it within your lifetime!) it's great for tinkering with.
Yeah, that's why I like it. Everything's open, and it's just nice feeling when you understand something (a bit). Starting from scratch with Mac OS or Linux is a bit daunting.
Also: Another one gone. How long before you can count the number of RISC OS users on the fingers of one foot? Getting to be a bit of a habit...
Still, wait till version 2 of the Islands Level Editor comes out - then they'll be sorry... |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #100273, posted by monkeyson2 at 15:24, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100272 |
Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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Fair point, but I think there were several years when it wouldn't have been ridiculous to compare RISC OS with PCs/Macs in the fields of DTP, design, bitmap editing, word processing and 'office' style software. That's a pretty big chunk of what a computer gets used for, even now. Yes. I really enjoyed the articles in Acorn User about professional publishing and DTP, circa 1994.
Still, wait till version 2 of the Islands Level Editor comes out - then they'll be sorry... |
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sorvad |
Message #100274, posted by sorvad at 15:41, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100269 |
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Don't know whether this is possible for you or not but perhaps you'd like to come along to RONWUG (South Manchester based user group) on Wedsnesday night. Thanks for the info. It's possible I could make a meeting sometime
What sort of things do you do there ?
Is there a list of Acorn/ Risc OS user groups anywhere ?
[Edited by sorvad at 15:42, 19/3/2007] |
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Phil Mellor |
Message #100275, posted by monkeyson2 at 15:51, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100274 |
Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler
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Is there a list of Acorn/ Risc OS user groups anywhere ? http://www.aaug.net/
Not sure how up to date it is... |
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sorvad |
Message #100276, posted by sorvad at 15:54, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100275 |
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Cheers |
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Michael Drake |
Message #100283, posted by tlsa at 16:19, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100272 |
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Still, wait till version 2 of the Islands Level Editor comes out - then they'll be sorry... That's the spirit. |
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Andrew Rawnsley |
Message #100286, posted by arawnsley at 16:36, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100268 |
R-Comp chap
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45 mins south of Manchester would probably make us your closest RISC OS dealer/company, so if you want to come and check anything out, feel free to give us a call on 01925 755043 or email at rcomp@rcomp.co.uk - the Manchester user group should prove a good user-based lifeline, too, and I'm glad John's on here to mention that. The Northwest is a fairly active RISC OS region |
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Colin Cartmell-Browne |
Message #100287, posted by Col at 16:50, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100286 |
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I'm glad John's on here to mention that. Oi. it was me who mentioned RONWUG not John
In reply to Sorvid:
Theres not a pre planned list of activities as such, it all depends on what John/Steve Potts can arrange between meetings. I'm suppose to help organise things but never seem to get around to doing anything. (But I do make the tea from time to time!!)
Past events include:
Preview of the A9 R-comp paying a visit Derek Haslam previewing his new interative fiction title. How to upgrade a RISC PC etc etc
But anyone can suggest things they'd like to do, and if we can arrange it we'll give it a go. |
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Allan Dawes |
Message #100292, posted by CrazyRisc at 18:05, 19/3/2007, in reply to message #100287 |
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It's doing my head in when the developers (Castle and ROL) are maintaining a divide. Why can't they all just pull together and work on development. This is why Risc OS is going nowhere fast. They are also not thinking of the best market direction either. The A9 works, as a cost efective desktop system. Risc OS does not really need the massive amount of memory the Iyonix has (Though I am not complaining). Also, why has nobody tried their hand at the Laptop market. As the A9 only takes 2.5Watts, thats probably less power than the I/O chipset on a x86 laptop, so think of the runtime.
Anyway.... enough bitching and dreaming. It IS sad when people loose faith in Risc OS, but then - what can we do?
Note to Castle and Advantage 6:- Would love a Laptop system running Risc OS native. Would also like to see that new 1.2GHz XScale put to use too. |
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Colin Cartmell-Browne |
Message #100319, posted by Col at 08:03, 20/3/2007, in reply to message #100292 |
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Also, why has nobody tried their hand at the Laptop market. As the A9 only takes 2.5Watts, thats probably less power than the I/O chipset on a x86 laptop, so think of the runtime.
They did- CTA tried to produce a laptop soon after they released the RiscStation.
AIUI one of the many problems of producing a RISC OS laptop is getting hold of the actual cases. Most manufacturers sell their cases in bulk- at a price that RISC OS companies can't afford and are not likely to recuperate their costs on. |
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keith dunlop |
Message #100321, posted by epistaxsis at 08:09, 20/3/2007, in reply to message #100292 |
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dummy spitting:
http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1881.html
:-( |
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Peter Naulls |
Message #100375, posted by pnaulls at 19:22, 20/3/2007, in reply to message #100321 |
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dummy spitting:
http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1881.html
:-( No dummies spit, no toys thrown as people are trying to say, but thanks for your concen.
The toys and dummies remain precisely where they were - on riscos.info, and not used since no one cares. |
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Gazc |
Message #100857, posted by gazc at 16:59, 27/3/2007, in reply to message #100219 |
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Part of me wishes that the dream of restoring RISC OS to being a 'real' OS (i.e. a genuine choice lined up against Linux, MacOS et al) goes away and we can start treating it just as a hobby OS. I completely agree with Chris. I've recently decided that while I do still use it, I feel that RISC OS is now more of a hobby for me than a serious platform. The unfortunate flip side of this is that as a result I also feel that many users on all platforms will become increasingly unaware of what RISC OS has to offer, an example being RISC OS's programming system. To draw from my own experience, RISC OS got me into programming and I feel that many users who are in the same position will not get the same opportunity. As yet I have not found a feasible alternative to RISC OS programming.
Assuming that it could be a hobby OS, it still like others needs support. For this there is only one solution I can see, that the system should be available to everyone. Obviously this raises its own complications, but at least in a freely available form, those supporting it could continue to use or develop for it and those looking for an alternative could see there was one.
I don't think arguing helps, but neither does the current commercial situation.
[Edited by gazc at 18:00, 27/3/2007] |
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