Are you a good RISC OS programmer?

A) Not really
B) I'm good at BASIC
C) I'm good at ARM code
D) I'm good at C/C++
E) I'm good at 2/3 of the above

This is in order to find out whether we do have a programmer glut, or just a bunch of lazy programmers.

If we do have a programmer glut, then I can pitch in by writing a load of tutorials to help get us back on our feet.

First:
What programming languages do you know on RISC OS - Assembler, BASIC, C, C++, WimpBasic, whatever else is out there, none!

Second:
What programming language would you most like to learn/read articles about - Assembler, BASIC, C, C++, WimpBasic etc.

Now how about that Poll change IconBar editorial staff? I think it's been sorted out if people use JavaScript or not :-)

There are quite a few programming languages available for RISC OS like Pascal, Charm, Fortran 77, Forth, Squeak (smalltalk), XLisp and probably more. Does anyone use any of these?

[Edited by Gulli at 15:37, 25/5/2001]

Just to say, if this poll does go up, there should be an 'are you interested in learning about...' type option. Some of the people selecting the '0 languages' option may well be those most in need of articles after all.

Looks like TIB will be needing a new poll system!

Perhaps just:

Are you interested in learning:

A) BASIC
B) ARM code
C) C/C++

Although that wouldn't answer the question of what programming knowledge they already have.

Now how about that Poll change IconBar editorial staff? I think it's been sorted out if people use JavaScript or not :-)

Yeah, hurry up and get a poll up there before I lose interest in teaching someone something new!

There are quite a few programming languages available for RISC OS like Pascal, Charm, Fortran 77, Forth, Squeak (smalltalk), XLisp and probably more. Does anyone use any of these?

I don't use any of those. The question at the moment is more of what ones are useful in RISC OS - the main stream ones with lots of support, and ones that you can write commercial apps in.

What makes you think software sin't being writen, also we need ideas (although see chocy's RISC OS initiatives page) and people to pay us for may of them (programmers aren't likely to work for free unless it's a hobby)

I don't think anyone said they thought that software wasn't being written. It's just that we don't seem to have enough of it, or enough people working on it. VOTI and Artex need help with their games, the ideas/initiative pages have lots of things listed which people aren't picking up, and I'm sure some DTP/Spreadsheet/etc programmers need help as well.

The idea behind this poll is to find out whether we simply have less programmers (Or ones who don't know any useful languages), or ones which for some reason aren't programming.

By asking what languages out of the main three (ARM, BASIC and C/C++) they know and can program in a RISC OS context, we can choose whether to write tutorials for the languages which people don't know, give programmers ideas of things to program (Perhaps via another poll or thread asking the public what they want, or by an already existing ideas site), or, perhaps the hardest, give them more incentive to program.

But the fact still remains that TIB needs a new poll!

Or should we just scan the net for programming tutorials/utilities and get a load of links to them?

>Pitch in anyway :)
>
>How about making it more...
>------------------------------------------------
>BASIC, ARM code, C/C++... how many RISC OS based programming languages do you know?

>C/C++ isn't necessarily RISC OS based! I could know them for windoze or something! Also, I can write just about anything in BASIC or Assembler,m and I frequently do.

Really?
We need programmers of infinite ability such as yourself in VOTI. Please contact Nathan!

Well I didn't say I had infinite ability, and I didn't say I had time. Apart from that, I'm an idle programmer or an idle student in my spare time ;-) I fiddle about coding in all my spare time, I just have very little of it to go writing stuff which won't benefit me personally... it's the way it goes, unfortunately.

Well I didn't say I had infinite ability, and I didn't say I had time. Apart from that, I'm an idle programmer or an idle student in my spare time ;-) I fiddle about coding in all my spare time, I just have very little of it to go writing stuff which won't benefit me personally... it's the way it goes, unfortunately.

VOTI aren't exactly full of full-time coders. We just do stuff in spare time or there is me who does 100% RO stuff in spare time at the moment although at times I do wonder with a market as insignificant as ours and a company with bad PR (ROL). I'm just bitter and yes I could do a better job, I could even get coders to work for free on 32-bitising everything.

So, erm, was that a yes to a poll about programming?
Or should we just scan the net for programming tutorials/utilities and get a load of links to them?

From me, a yes to either. Like your initial idea.

The langauges I know (And could write tutorials for) are:

BASIC
C/C++
ARM code

Also there's Obey files & the command line, which might need a mention somewhere.

I don't think anyone said they thought that software wasn't being written. It's just that we don't seem to have enough of it, or enough people working on it. VOTI and Artex need help with their games, the ideas/initiative pages have lots of things listed which people aren't picking up, and I'm sure some DTP/Spreadsheet/etc programmers need help as well.

I wouldn't say that VOTI needed help writing games - as I see it coders aren't the problem. We lack graphics artists and musicians to put the professional polish on games - I could write a game but it'd look naff.

Artex don't seem to have problems with writing games. They (along with VOTI) suffer from a lack of support for "standards" eg video playback and the like. In this case coders are a problem - coders with the expertise to plug the gap.

That's not to say that people shouldn't offer to get involved. VOTI are always on the look out for new talent.

The idea behind this poll is to find out whether we simply have less programmers (Or ones who don't know any useful languages), or ones which for some reason aren't programming.

1. We have less coders - that's a fact. The amount we've lost over the years is large. Also the people we have lost have been astonishingly good (people like Guttorm Vik) and replacements of that calibre are few and far between. I class myself as a competent programmer - I can write code on just about any platform I choose. However what I don't know about programming RISC OS specifically is shocking (and almost fills the entire PRMs ;-) )

2. All programming languages are useful. Unless you accept the limitations imposed by modules though then the RISC OS development tools don't support cross language interworking very easily.

3. Perhaps people aren't programming because they've got other things to do.

By asking what languages out of the main three (ARM, BASIC and C/C++) they know and can program in a RISC OS context, we can choose whether to write tutorials for the languages which people don't know, give programmers ideas of things to program (Perhaps via another poll or thread asking the public what they want, or by an already existing ideas site), or, perhaps the hardest, give them more incentive to program.

There is already a RISC OS 4 wishlist. I suspect there will be one for applications around somewhere. There are tutorials on ARM on the heyrick site (and the ones you converted by Matthew Bloch). C tutorials are two a penny on the net, although there are very few which cater specifically for RISC OS. BASIC..well IIRC Martyn Fox is looking to re-release his book on coding in BASIC online.

Another problem is that there have never really been a standard set of tools. Some people use the toolbox, but not everyone has access to ResEd, meaning tutorials on WIMP programming have to ignore it. RISC OS Ltd and Pace have never really stated their position on development tools outside of the compilers themselves.

I remember when RISC OS Ltd were first setup Andrew Rawnsley mentioned the possibility of looking into a low cost C++ package based on GCC (with easy installer) with the ResEd tools. It would have been fantastic if it had appeared - it would've given hobbyists a way forward while people with the cash to chuck around could go for Norcroft BUT writing lots of tutorials on the toolbox would have become a practicality.

But the fact still remains that TIB needs a new poll!

>Pitch in anyway
>
>How about making it more...
>------------------------------------------------
>BASIC, ARM code, C/C++... how many RISC OS based programming languages do you know?

>C/C++ isn't necessarily RISC OS based! I could know them for windoze or something! Also, I can write just about anything in BASIC or Assembler,m and I frequently do.

Really?
We need programmers of infinite ability such as yourself in VOTI. Please contact Nathan!

C/C++ isn't necessarily RISC OS based! I could know them for windoze or something! Also, I can write just about anything in BASIC or Assembler,m and I frequently do. What makes you think software sin't being writen, also we need ideas (although see chocy's RISC OS initiatives page) and people to pay us for may of them (programmers aren't likely to work for free unless it's a hobby)
[snip]

John

[Edited by john at 12:44, 31/5/2001]

The only problem with your approach is that it doesn't say what languages they know and what ones they don't.

Alternatively, ask them to fill it out for each one they're good/bad at.

BTW, only the likes of Justin Fletcher and Jason Tribbeck are allowed to post "Godlike"

Okay, a new poll is up, asking about general skills rather than specific languages. We can see how many non-programmers come to TIB first, and then see what languages people are interested later.

BTW, only the likes of Justin Fletcher and Jason Tribbeck are allowed to post "Godlike"

Where does that leave Jan Klose / Fednet for example?

BTW, only the likes of Justin Fletcher and Jason Tribbeck are allowed to post "Godlike"

Where does that leave Jan Klose / Fednet for example?

I said "the likes of" - why, do you not think they're in the same league?

0 = can't
1 = a bit
2 = i get by
3 = fluent

On the above scale, how good are you at programming in:

[ ] BASIC
[ ] ARM code
[ ] C/C++

btw "dearth" is the anti-glut
please keep all remarks about Dearth Vader, dearth to all fanatics, etc. to yourself

Possibly even above, perhaps in some peoples opinions!
I'm asking what others think (for a bit of fun hopefully)

Without knocking the Artex guys but if they're above the likes of Justin Fletcher then I guess Frank Frohl must be classed as "transcended from this universe"

This is getting silly. I think most of us have a pretty good idea of who is good or not. For me the likes of Justin Fletcher, Stewart Brodie, Kevin Bracey, Robin Watts etc are at the top of the tree...not just because of their ability but also because of their seemingly inexhaustible willingness to help those of us further down the tree to ascend it.

Then you get people like myself - I entered that I'm competent - actually I consider myself better than that, just not on RISC OS - most of my work involves writing code for other platforms..or platform independent code which means I'm not overly familiar with the innards of RISC OS - for example I don't know how to write an ARM veneer that setups the C environment and calls a C function on a "CallEvery" callback. OTOH I can write modules in C, I can write games or game related code (using ARM code where appropriate) and, at a push, I understand the concepts behind the WIMP enough (from experience on other platforms) to write simple WIMP apps if I need to.

As an example of how I work the VOTI side of the collaboration with Artex on networking code is developed on Win98 and ported back to RISC OS because I don't have a networked RISC OS box. BTW before anyone asks no I can't comment on how this is going.

BTW, a glut is too many - surely writing tutorials in that environment wouldn't do too much good?

Doh! Stupid brain.

The only problem with your approach is that it doesn't say what languages they know and what ones they don't.

If you're after a longer poll, how about this one:

How good at you at programming RISC OS?

A) I'm rubbish
B) I can do some BASIC
C) I'm good at BASIC
D) I can do some ARM code
E) I'm good at ARM code
F) I can do some C/C++
G) I'm good at C/C++
H) B and D
I) C and D
J) B and E
K) C and E
L) B and F
M) C and F
N) D and F
O) E and F
P) B and G
Q) C and G
R) D and G
S) E and G
T) B,D,F
U) C,D,F
V) B,E,F
W) C,E,F
X) B,D,G
Y) C,D,G
Z) B,E,G
AA) C,E,G

Alternatively, ask them to fill it out for each one they're good/bad at.

I can't: 26%
A bit: 16%
I get by: 27%
I'm pretty good: 15%
Very good: 8%
Godlike: 8%

Setting the 'handy to the RISC OS market' line between 'I get by' and 'I'm pretty good' reveals that 69% aren't handy and 31% are... not too bad.

However if we could convince the 'I get by's to improve their skills then we could double our number of programmers - a very good thing to do

What for the next poll then? The languages people want to learn?

But yes, a list of languages - ones that can sensibly be used under RISC OS and addressed by people that are willing to write articles - would be handy.

How about making it more...
------------------------------------------------
BASIC, ARM code, C/C++... how many RISC OS based programming languages do you know?
( ) 0
( ) 1
( ) 2
( ) 3
( ) 4
( ) I am the god of RISC OS programming, bow before me, mere mortals!
------------------------------------------------

BTW, a glut is too many - surely writing tutorials in that environment wouldn't do too much good?