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Yet Another Stupid Roguelike |
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Phlamethrower (00:40 1/9/2008)
rich (13:13 2/9/2008)
Phlamethrower (13:59 2/9/2008)
rich (15:42 2/9/2008)
Phlamethrower (16:29 2/9/2008)
rich (17:54 2/9/2008)
Phlamethrower (19:01 2/9/2008)
Col (16:02 2/9/2008)
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #108225, posted by Phlamethrower at 00:40, 1/9/2008 |
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Or something like that, anyway.
This is an idea I've had after playing BioShock again the other day. The idea originated when I started to think about the sentry guns - in BioShock they're haphazard constructions made from old desk chairs and, um, machine guns. These are devices people with limited resources have made in order to defend their territory. What if there was a game based around a similar situation, where you (and the other players) have to build their own defences out of whatever parts they could salvage?
Well that's the core concept, at least. Obviously some more can be said:
* The gameplay could lend itself well to almost any situation, but a standard ASCII/tile-based roguelike would be the simplest implementation wise (unless an existing game engine was reused) and would provide a good focus on the tactics involved.
* The other players could equally be AI or human.
* The situation the players would be in would obviously have to be one where they're forced to fight amongst each other, while still maintaining their own territories. Kind of like an RTS but with only one controllable unit.
* The reasoning behind the fighting doesn't need to be particularly solid or sensible.
* The location for the fighting would have to be some form of enclosed space, otherwise people could just wander into the wilderness to get supplies. This could be at the bottom of the ocean like BioShock (maybe even creating an entire BioShock roguelike - the transition seems to have worked reasonably well for other FPS's), or a city, space station (System Shock roguelike? If it was based around #2 you could even include a Rogue-themed level as the SHODAN-created artificial reality, for extra geek/homage points), tower block, etc.
* Because the location is an enclosed space and there are multiple players, it may make sense to generate all the levels at once rather than one at a time.
At the moment if this idea ever goes any further than this thread then I'm leaning towards it being set in a tower block. Bob & Trev: Resurrection obviously had the same setting, but it's something I didn't really have the ability to fully explore in 32K of RAM. Perhaps power struggles and office politics go one step too far and one day everyone snaps and start killing each other to find out who gets to use the coffee machine first during the lunch break? Plus it would be an obvious source of desk chairs for turning into sentry guns (although I guess you'd have to be rather creative as to what to use for the gun part).
Of course this idea isn't likely to get beyond this thread (unless I decide to do a second Bob and Trev roguelike. Bob and Trev: Survivor?), so this is all academic. |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #108261, posted by rich at 13:13, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108225 |
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I'm still trying to get my head around you looking at BioShock and thinking, hmm, roguelike? I'm guessing you're just a real fan of the genre, or you're too lazy to write a proper game 
The location for the fighting would have to be some form of enclosed space, otherwise people could just wander into the wilderness to get supplies. My first reaction to this is, so? Let people get supplies from the wilderness. Perhaps a domed city is surrounded by a wasteland, which has tons of broken crap ripe to be used - if you brave the xyz monsters that live out there.
An RTS always has some way of providing resources - metal blobs that can have mines put on them, plus power stations. If you're in a sealed environment, where are the resources going to come from? Everything that's available will have been picked over, and eventually will break down.
________
 Cheers,
Rich.
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #108264, posted by Phlamethrower at 13:59, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108261 |
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I'm guessing you're just a real fan of the genre, or you're too lazy to write a proper game Nah - writing a proper (i.e. full 3D) game would just take too long. Unless an army of helpers appears from nowhere.
My first reaction to this is, so? Let people get supplies from the wilderness. Perhaps a domed city is surrounded by a wasteland, which has tons of broken crap ripe to be used - if you brave the xyz monsters that live out there. I guess that could work. I'm just wary of making it too easy to step outside and get free stuff - the game is meant to be about people creating and defending their own territory, and attacking/raiding the territory of other people. If it's too easy to go outside and get supplies then players might just do that instead of fighting with each other.
If the xyz monsters came into the city and attacked the players then it could have more chance of success, because that way even if other players are ignoring you you'll still have to defend your territory. I was actually thinking of having a zombie apocalypse type situation - but in that situation the surviving humans would probably want to band together rather than split off and work individually.
If you're in a sealed environment, where are the resources going to come from? Everything that's available will have been picked over, and eventually will break down. Andrew Ryan didn't listen, so why should I?  |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #108265, posted by rich at 15:42, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108264 |
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I'm guessing you're just a real fan of the genre, or you're too lazy to write a proper game Nah - writing a proper (i.e. full 3D) game would just take too long. Unless an army of helpers appears from nowhere.
There's a lot of middle ground between ASCII art and full 3D!
My first reaction to this is, so? Let people get supplies from the wilderness. Perhaps a domed city is surrounded by a wasteland, which has tons of broken crap ripe to be used - if you brave the xyz monsters that live out there. I guess that could work. I'm just wary of making it too easy to step outside and get free stuff - the game is meant to be about people creating and defending their own territory, and attacking/raiding the territory of other people. If it's too easy to go outside and get supplies then players might just do that instead of fighting with each other.
Wouldn't there be competition not only from random monsters, but also other players wanting to take that stuff? And weather? And earthquakes. Maybe locusts.
If the xyz monsters came into the city and attacked the players then it could have more chance of success, because that way even if other players are ignoring you you'll still have to defend your territory. I was actually thinking of having a zombie apocalypse type situation - but in that situation the surviving humans would probably want to band together rather than split off and work individually. Well, you could just ignore the city part if it helps - I was just thinking about having a slightly more defensible part, and a free-for-all part. You mentioned "RTS", and basically they have two parts - the bit where you turtle up, and once you've got the defence sorted you go on the attack. You've talked some about defence, but the attack bit maybe needs some work - and having to go find and control resources are probably the best way to force this.
If you're in a sealed environment, where are the resources going to come from? Everything that's available will have been picked over, and eventually will break down. Andrew Ryan didn't listen, so why should I?
Who? That stupid twat who built a city at the bottom of the sea, and then (gasp!) it flooded? And everyone went mental.
If you want to take more notice of a bona fide mentalist over me... well, maybe there's not much difference, but fuck you anyway 
________
Cheers,
Rich.
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Colin Cartmell-Browne |
Message #108266, posted by Col at 16:02, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108225 |
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What if there was a game based around a similar situation, where you (and the other players) have to build their own defences out of whatever parts they could salvage?
What like Bioshock meets Mad Max meets the A team? |
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #108267, posted by Phlamethrower at 16:29, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108265 |
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There's a lot of middle ground between ASCII art and full 3D! But at what point does the extra development time outweigh the gameplay gains?
Wouldn't there be competition not only from random monsters, but also other players wanting to take that stuff? And weather? And earthquakes. Maybe locusts. OK, people might be fighting each other - but they wouldn't be fighting the home base defences, would they?
Unless they were to set up a base outside the base - in which case players would again take the path of least resistance and go to some wilderness territory that hasn't been claimed yet.
having to go find and control resources are probably the best way to force this. That's what I've suggested - but instead of having to go outside and look for new resources you need to break into someone else's base and steal the resources they already have.
Who? That stupid twat who built a city at the bottom of the sea, and then (gasp!) it flooded? And everyone went mental. And they built lots of sentry guns. Which is exactly what I want to happen in this game! |
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Richard Goodwin |
Message #108268, posted by rich at 17:54, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108267 |
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There's a lot of middle ground between ASCII art and full 3D! But at what point does the extra development time outweigh the gameplay gains?
At the point where you don't have fucking ASCII art 
Something in the Alien Breed/Gauntlet stylee (top-down multidirectional scroller) wouldn't take a great deal of time to knock up given your past experience. Also: graphics should be easy to find.
Wouldn't there be competition not only from random monsters, but also other players wanting to take that stuff? And weather? And earthquakes. Maybe locusts. OK, people might be fighting each other - but they wouldn't be fighting the home base defences, would they?
Maybe that's the endgame? Or co-op? See below.
Unless they were to set up a base outside the base - in which case players would again take the path of least resistance and go to some wilderness territory that hasn't been claimed yet. Yes, but that's the set-up phase. If you've got multiple players, you want them fighting each other for resources, and either competing to get to something at the central location, or perhaps teaming up.
Change the scenario for a second, so we're not getting hung up on dystopian wasteland scenarios: you've got a bank vault which is full of gold. Four crews of villains get wind of this. There are a number of ways this can play out: they can manoeuvre for position, fighting amongst each other to get to the best position to take the prize; they can ignore each other, and just make it a flat-out race to the end; they can allow their competitors to do the hard work and then fight to take over at the last minute; or they can combine, all taking a lesser payday, or just a couple can team up and all of the above still come in to play (combine to take out the rest, and then fight amongst each other at the last minute).
If it's just you against the base defences, well, that's just an FPS. Like Bioshock.
having to go find and control resources are probably the best way to force this. That's what I've suggested - but instead of having to go outside and look for new resources you need to break into someone else's base and steal the resources they already have.
Yeah, but that's going to give diminishing returns - you'll get a couple of sentry guns each, and that's it. How do you gain an advantage? Yeah, steal their stuff - but if they've already made them into sentries, how do you overpower them, and what do you get except heavily damaged sentries? How do you repair things when they get damaged? They do take damage, don't they?
Who? That stupid twat who built a city at the bottom of the sea, and then (gasp!) it flooded? And everyone went mental. And they built lots of sentry guns. Which is exactly what I want to happen in this game!
I prefer something like, say, another world - like Aliens. Which had sentry guns before Bioshock. And broken stuff. And problematic moving between locations (alien ship; various settlement areas; nuclear power station)
But then - it's your game.
________
Cheers,
Rich.
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Jeffrey Lee |
Message #108269, posted by Phlamethrower at 19:01, 2/9/2008, in reply to message #108268 |
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Something in the Alien Breed/Gauntlet stylee (top-down multidirectional scroller) wouldn't take a great deal of time to knock up given your past experience. Also: graphics should be easy to find. But I'd have to take the effort to make it a real-time game instead of turn-based! 
If it's just you against the base defences, well, that's just an FPS. Like Bioshock. But in Bioshock you don't get to put up your own sentry guns. Most of the time you can't even get close enough to one to hack it before it spots you.
how do you overpower them The trick would be to design it so that the sentries are only really capable of slowing down the progress of a skilled player (much like most enemies in most games). If you're an idiot or too injured you'll just go out and die, but if you're smart you'll be able to knock a hole in the defenses before the owner is able to rush back and defend the base properly. At the least you'll be able to waste some of his ammo by chucking decoys around.
what do you get except heavily damaged sentries? You get the heavily damaged sentries, and whatever the sentries were protecting (food? gold? pron?)
How do you repair things when they get damaged? Using your engineering skills! If you can build a sentry gun mcgyver-style from the spare parts you find lying around yourself then you can surely repair damaged ones. However the repair process would probably remove some raw materials (e.g. metal sheeting) from the game world. So if you run out of spare parts you're pretty much dead.
I prefer something like, say, another world - like Aliens. Which had sentry guns before Bioshock. And broken stuff. And problematic moving between locations (alien ship; various settlement areas; nuclear power station)
But then - it's your game. Well you make that game and I'll make this game |
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